Perhaps the reasons for the social unrest lay not in nefarious schemes hatched by foreign forces, but from the inevitable implosion of capitalism itself. The capitalist principles of continued growth and profit are not sustainable. The phenomenal growth we experienced between 1950 and 1970, during which our middle class was solidified, started to wane in the 1970s as capitalist forces thought of new ways to increase profits. The American middle class no longer had a share in the the wealth as productivity soared and wages plateaued. It was only a matter of time until huge sections of the American work force were entirely eliminated and moved overseas. The push-back, the looting, the violence, are all predictable outcomes of a flawed system. The people have finally had enough. The gig is up. The game is over. But to replace it with the perverted form of Marxism set in motion by the soviet Bolsheviks would be folly, for it too was unsustainable - it just happened to fail first. And to embrace the form of fascism currently on the rise as an acceptable replacement is tantamount to nullifying the U.S. Constitution. "Land of the free" would simply be an epitaph on America's tombstone.
I agree that Capitalism is set to implode upon itself. Man can be slave to one of two master's. Capitalism allows man to be slave to his own heart. This can be a wonderful scenario if the heart of man is in service to God. However, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The Bible is full of tales + repeated reminders that every time the Man of God commits his heart in service to his own dream, regardless of how well intentioned his heart may be in service to God, he inevitably falls prey to the idols of man.
I have watched this happen over decades of attendance in the Christian Church. Capitalism assuredly keeps that boat afloat! 👏👏👏 Blessed be to the God of their fathers.
My personal Practice is to allow everything, (who am I to make the ultimate judgement anyhow?) And then let go of that which does not serve me.
America's current Capitalist Structure does not and has not served me well. As an American citizen of European descent. Therefore, I choose to recognize the importance of releasing attachment to beliefs that this structure is any type of gift to mankind.
Other than the gift of affording him the opportunity to fall flat on his face, accept he was misled by his own heart, and move forward with humility, compassion and grace.
Unfortunately I find that with great success in the Capital markets comes great pride in pocketbooks and paradigms. Therefore the apologies are slim and the private donations and investments are fat.
I'm sorry that the "capitalist structure" hasn't served you well.
But forgive me if I don't find it convincing against the notion that it has, overall, over time, been a net benefit for humanity as a whole. Nobody has ever even questioned that notion. Even President Obama -- not in and of himself a bastion of pro-capitalist sentiment -- said the following: ""it is important to remember that capitalism has been the greatest driver of prosperity and opportunity the world has ever seen."
Does this mean it's perfect? Of course not. Does it mean that there aren't downsides (tradeoffs)? Of course not. But if he can admit that, then so can we, while still admitting there are things that we can improve.
Look, I'm not looking to paint capital "C" Capitalism as the panacea of all of humanity. I'm saying that a respect for property rights and human liberty, democratic republican capitalism as an ECONOMIC and POLITICAL system (not an overarching moral system which is required for it to work) is the best system we have heretofore found for the fair distribution of wealth and goods while maintaining liberty. Every attempt to shove it to the side for the past 150 years has resulted in a backslide in human liberty and flourishing.
I think we probably have tapped this topic for today... and I really enjoyed the back and forth and feedback from yourself and Kevin...
The only thing I wished to convey overall is that a) Fascism is not some "extremist Conservatism"... the two are not even related... and b) that Conservatism is, by definition, the precise balance that you mentioned that you wished for. Happy to explore further another day.
Here's food for thought... let's assume for a moment that Obama was right capitalism at least WAS the best system we have found, and that, to Kevin's point, that it has exhausted itself...
On another thread another day (I'm happy to start it, and we can all get to it when we can), let's see if we can pinpoint WHEN, as precisely as possible, it was indeed exhausted? 1492? 1619? 1776? 1812? 1913? 1979? When did we reach "peak capitalism" or in other words, when did being to fail... and why? If we can answer that, then I think a conversation about potential approaches to solutions (and tradeoffs! :)) could be productive.
I apologize for any vagueness. I recognize sometimes I make statements which can create quite a dichotomy of thought and emotion. I simply meant to say that I am not envisioned as a "success" in America's (current) Capital Society, however, I have had several an opportunity to fall on my face and learn from my mistakes. This is a freedom which is undeniably my own in my pursuit of Liberty + Happiness. I am grateful for this freedom as it has redefined what Success means to me.
I simply seek to shed a light on the current underbelly of Patriarchal Capitalism from whence we came. America indeed is the country of ReBirth, yes? For Felon + Fundamentalist alike? Under the watchful eye of One God? I do not wish to suggest we are completely ill-advised. Perhaps we patronizingly defend some with ill-intentions.
Yeah, I'm not sure on the last, but I think there is little doubt that the opportunity to fail and learn is definitely an American value which can leave some feeling... less than successful.
It would be hard for me to argue that I'm a raging success in the American Capitalist system. I've never built a very large corporation, and I've never made a lot of money...
My only point is that Capitalism is SIMPLY a way to distribute goods and wealth.. it's not a "way of life" by itself.
I think, to your point, we often forget that, and believe that free markets are SUFFICIENT. They are not, not for a good life...free markets (not crony capitalism) I would argue are a prerequisite, but certainly not efficient. The organization that created this forum has this as its value set (a slightly abbreviated version):
***
We seek:
Wisdom in a world of information;
Love and beauty in a world of image and fad;
Happiness and meaning in a world of fame and pleasure.
Virtue and Good, even as we strive to be “great”
***
This goes WAY beyond how we make our living and who and how our bills are paid. This is about who were are as human beings.
Yeah... I'd only argue that Marxism didn't just "happen" to fail first, but that it failed spectacularly and quickly because it is incompatible with human nature at the outset.
It's also useful to distinguish between "capitalism" in terms of the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith and a sacred respect for property rights, with the corporate, crony capitalism of big governments (The FedGov is STILL the world's largest corporation).
That original form of "capitalism" has resulted (lest we forget) in the most sustained and real increase in quality of life and human flourishing... in the history of mankind. Let's not kid ourselves that we could have done better without it. (Not asking you to prove a negative, but I'm also not going to try to prove one either.)
The challenge you are hitting on (or in some sense avoiding, but nevertheless hitting on, as the concern has value) is not a structural one but a cultural one. I'd recommend reading "Culture of Narcissism" which was written from the left in 1979 but has been experiencing a resurge on the right, as it lays out the "individualist" obsession and the atomization, loneliness, etc, that ensues.
For those of a more spiritual persuasion I'd recommend "Return to Order" by John Horvat, which identifies the problem as more one of "frenetic intemperance" whereas we seem to want more and more and more and more, until our priorities are so out of whack, it's hard to imagine recovering anything meaningful and real out of our short lives.
There is a lot to disagree with and to agree with from both perspectives, but they are both a better cure (to your point) to the malaise than "Democratic Socialism"... in my ever so humble opinion.
I think we both would agree that the Stalin and Mao style of communism are, at best, absurd - and at worst, the embodiment of evil. I always wondered how the Russian people could not see the obvious irony in how twisted their system became, devolving from its origins of "for the people." Their system of ruthless dictatorship was far from being "for the people." But as the USSR began to crumble, and people were able to speak more freely, I learned that the people knew it was a sham all along, as reflected in the iconic phrase "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." But let's be clear, whatever the USSR and the Peoples Republic of China were, it would cause Karl to spin in his grave.
We would agree on that first, but I would further contend that Marxism is a dead letter on arrival. It has been tried MANY times for the last 100+ years... all over the world, in big countries, in little countries, in a variety of flavors, and it always fails.
Of course it would make him spin in his grave! I doubt he actually believed anyone would try that shit! LOL
I appreciate the thought put into this article. It certainly helps us as the people of America to be aware and mindful of the heart of organizations. Often times these organizations pander to our emotions and we are often caught in the middle as we "wake up" seeing to entangle ourselves from the web of marketable lies in which we are laymen.
My husband and I were discussing the fact that the country is moving swiftly into Fascism under the hand of this president and his administration. They are assuredly stoking the fires of fear towards socialism while issuing executive orders to involve federal agents to states who did not request aid or assistance. The 45th President is a friend to Russia and a fan of federal force.
My question is, if it is socialism on the left and fascism on the right, what is a God fearing Christian to do?
(Jesus prophecies perhaps about this in Matthew 24 15-17 and suggests those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. An off grid life self-sustained in God's perfect nature sounds pretty sweet to me!)
I suppose this is where my homeschool education failed me. I have always been taught the conservative party aligns with the Republican Congress, which, in my understanding, is responsible at the core for the current state of affairs in the government.
I suppose I was fishing for answers like term limits for all government service and accessible community programs run by non-partisan government officials rather than private special interests funded by Government grants.
Individuals can still opt out of government services if they choose! Providing for the people does not have to look like Venezuela Socialism.
We run so quickly from every man for himself to the government against every man. I am just wondering if we are "woke" enough yet to write our own policy which gives every man freedom of choice + a safe space to build the life of their dreams based on birthright not social status.
1) the current problems are indeed due in part to Republicans in Congress and in the WH, but Democrats control the house and they share plenty of the blame.
1b) the Republicans who are at fault have done nothing which would be considered even close to “fascism”... that charge is also hard to even pin on Trump, even if he does things he doesn’t like.
2) I have no “answers” to that expectation other than to say that there is no evidence that I’ve seen that “non-partisan” government officials are more fair than private options, or that, these days, non-partisan government officials even exist.
3) no. They can’t opt out when the government crowds out the competition (intentionally or unintentionally), and you’re right you can create a socialist system which doesn’t turn into Venezuela, unfortunately the way that it prevents turning into Venezuela is to stop being socialist (Sweden is a fun example).
4) again: that’s called conservatism; specifically American Conservatism. A culture of love and respect for fellow man; a respect of private property, a commitment to community and a work ethic. And very limited government based on protection of god-given rights (birthright).
These aren’t “SOLUTIONS” though. Term limits and “getting the money out of politics” is not going to solve our problem.
Conservatives don’t look for solutions. We’re constantly looking at trade-offs. :)
We all have to share this country, a country that I love. And the America that I love has nothing to do with political parties or the transients who hold office. America is a set of principles described in the Declaration of Independence and later codified in our Constitution. Unfortunately, we have never lived up to these principles. But we must continue to try. What can we do? Get money out of politics - number 1. Election management and the lobbying institution have created a system of legalized bribery and cheating under which the ordinary citizen doesn't stand a chance. I'm totally disgusted and have nothing but utter contempt for Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, Schumer, and their blind ilk who have been duped into following them. We can have a healthy debate about policy, but only if both sides have the best interest of the American people at heart. And if there is money tied to policy decisions, then it should have no place in this country. It is un American.
I do NOT believe that "getting the money out of politics" will solve anything, if for no other reasons that the tools that would be required to do so would be so draconian as to do more damage than good (Conservative: tradeoffs), but also because I believe that money and speech are hard to separate.
I also don't like term limits for legislators. (Lots to get into there)... honestly, to an earlier point, I don't believe that any policy prescription will "solve" any problems.
If we want more from our politicians (or ... you know... less), then we need to demand better of them, not try to change the systems to accommodate their corruption. It's a useless endeavor and it will end in misery. When John Adams said that the Constitution was "made only for a moral and religious people, and is inadequate for the government for any other" what he meant was that the people needed to be worthy of the Constitution's protection... not that if they stopped being so, the constitution could be tweaked to accommodate it.
The sides at play are you. And me. We have almost no control over what those people are doing now. The more we talk about them and complain about them the worse we do. We need to have the HARD IDEAS debates and start changing the way people think about what to expect from their politicians. :)
I can answer all of those things, but not all of them on this thread. I think it's a misnomer that Conservatives don't have concerns about: healthcare (I could write you a book on that one); or the poor or marginalized (I take issue with "enslaved"); nor does an understanding about tradeoffs make anyone close minded.
Perhaps the reasons for the social unrest lay not in nefarious schemes hatched by foreign forces, but from the inevitable implosion of capitalism itself. The capitalist principles of continued growth and profit are not sustainable. The phenomenal growth we experienced between 1950 and 1970, during which our middle class was solidified, started to wane in the 1970s as capitalist forces thought of new ways to increase profits. The American middle class no longer had a share in the the wealth as productivity soared and wages plateaued. It was only a matter of time until huge sections of the American work force were entirely eliminated and moved overseas. The push-back, the looting, the violence, are all predictable outcomes of a flawed system. The people have finally had enough. The gig is up. The game is over. But to replace it with the perverted form of Marxism set in motion by the soviet Bolsheviks would be folly, for it too was unsustainable - it just happened to fail first. And to embrace the form of fascism currently on the rise as an acceptable replacement is tantamount to nullifying the U.S. Constitution. "Land of the free" would simply be an epitaph on America's tombstone.
I agree that Capitalism is set to implode upon itself. Man can be slave to one of two master's. Capitalism allows man to be slave to his own heart. This can be a wonderful scenario if the heart of man is in service to God. However, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The Bible is full of tales + repeated reminders that every time the Man of God commits his heart in service to his own dream, regardless of how well intentioned his heart may be in service to God, he inevitably falls prey to the idols of man.
I have watched this happen over decades of attendance in the Christian Church. Capitalism assuredly keeps that boat afloat! 👏👏👏 Blessed be to the God of their fathers.
Sure. Though this is still allowing a rather broad and circular definition of “capitalism.”
My personal Practice is to allow everything, (who am I to make the ultimate judgement anyhow?) And then let go of that which does not serve me.
America's current Capitalist Structure does not and has not served me well. As an American citizen of European descent. Therefore, I choose to recognize the importance of releasing attachment to beliefs that this structure is any type of gift to mankind.
Other than the gift of affording him the opportunity to fall flat on his face, accept he was misled by his own heart, and move forward with humility, compassion and grace.
Unfortunately I find that with great success in the Capital markets comes great pride in pocketbooks and paradigms. Therefore the apologies are slim and the private donations and investments are fat.
I'm sorry that the "capitalist structure" hasn't served you well.
But forgive me if I don't find it convincing against the notion that it has, overall, over time, been a net benefit for humanity as a whole. Nobody has ever even questioned that notion. Even President Obama -- not in and of himself a bastion of pro-capitalist sentiment -- said the following: ""it is important to remember that capitalism has been the greatest driver of prosperity and opportunity the world has ever seen."
Does this mean it's perfect? Of course not. Does it mean that there aren't downsides (tradeoffs)? Of course not. But if he can admit that, then so can we, while still admitting there are things that we can improve.
Look, I'm not looking to paint capital "C" Capitalism as the panacea of all of humanity. I'm saying that a respect for property rights and human liberty, democratic republican capitalism as an ECONOMIC and POLITICAL system (not an overarching moral system which is required for it to work) is the best system we have heretofore found for the fair distribution of wealth and goods while maintaining liberty. Every attempt to shove it to the side for the past 150 years has resulted in a backslide in human liberty and flourishing.
I think we probably have tapped this topic for today... and I really enjoyed the back and forth and feedback from yourself and Kevin...
The only thing I wished to convey overall is that a) Fascism is not some "extremist Conservatism"... the two are not even related... and b) that Conservatism is, by definition, the precise balance that you mentioned that you wished for. Happy to explore further another day.
Here's food for thought... let's assume for a moment that Obama was right capitalism at least WAS the best system we have found, and that, to Kevin's point, that it has exhausted itself...
On another thread another day (I'm happy to start it, and we can all get to it when we can), let's see if we can pinpoint WHEN, as precisely as possible, it was indeed exhausted? 1492? 1619? 1776? 1812? 1913? 1979? When did we reach "peak capitalism" or in other words, when did being to fail... and why? If we can answer that, then I think a conversation about potential approaches to solutions (and tradeoffs! :)) could be productive.
I apologize for any vagueness. I recognize sometimes I make statements which can create quite a dichotomy of thought and emotion. I simply meant to say that I am not envisioned as a "success" in America's (current) Capital Society, however, I have had several an opportunity to fall on my face and learn from my mistakes. This is a freedom which is undeniably my own in my pursuit of Liberty + Happiness. I am grateful for this freedom as it has redefined what Success means to me.
I simply seek to shed a light on the current underbelly of Patriarchal Capitalism from whence we came. America indeed is the country of ReBirth, yes? For Felon + Fundamentalist alike? Under the watchful eye of One God? I do not wish to suggest we are completely ill-advised. Perhaps we patronizingly defend some with ill-intentions.
Yeah, I'm not sure on the last, but I think there is little doubt that the opportunity to fail and learn is definitely an American value which can leave some feeling... less than successful.
It would be hard for me to argue that I'm a raging success in the American Capitalist system. I've never built a very large corporation, and I've never made a lot of money...
My only point is that Capitalism is SIMPLY a way to distribute goods and wealth.. it's not a "way of life" by itself.
I think, to your point, we often forget that, and believe that free markets are SUFFICIENT. They are not, not for a good life...free markets (not crony capitalism) I would argue are a prerequisite, but certainly not efficient. The organization that created this forum has this as its value set (a slightly abbreviated version):
***
We seek:
Wisdom in a world of information;
Love and beauty in a world of image and fad;
Happiness and meaning in a world of fame and pleasure.
Virtue and Good, even as we strive to be “great”
***
This goes WAY beyond how we make our living and who and how our bills are paid. This is about who were are as human beings.
Have a great day!
Yeah... I'd only argue that Marxism didn't just "happen" to fail first, but that it failed spectacularly and quickly because it is incompatible with human nature at the outset.
It's also useful to distinguish between "capitalism" in terms of the "invisible hand" of Adam Smith and a sacred respect for property rights, with the corporate, crony capitalism of big governments (The FedGov is STILL the world's largest corporation).
That original form of "capitalism" has resulted (lest we forget) in the most sustained and real increase in quality of life and human flourishing... in the history of mankind. Let's not kid ourselves that we could have done better without it. (Not asking you to prove a negative, but I'm also not going to try to prove one either.)
The challenge you are hitting on (or in some sense avoiding, but nevertheless hitting on, as the concern has value) is not a structural one but a cultural one. I'd recommend reading "Culture of Narcissism" which was written from the left in 1979 but has been experiencing a resurge on the right, as it lays out the "individualist" obsession and the atomization, loneliness, etc, that ensues.
For those of a more spiritual persuasion I'd recommend "Return to Order" by John Horvat, which identifies the problem as more one of "frenetic intemperance" whereas we seem to want more and more and more and more, until our priorities are so out of whack, it's hard to imagine recovering anything meaningful and real out of our short lives.
There is a lot to disagree with and to agree with from both perspectives, but they are both a better cure (to your point) to the malaise than "Democratic Socialism"... in my ever so humble opinion.
I think we both would agree that the Stalin and Mao style of communism are, at best, absurd - and at worst, the embodiment of evil. I always wondered how the Russian people could not see the obvious irony in how twisted their system became, devolving from its origins of "for the people." Their system of ruthless dictatorship was far from being "for the people." But as the USSR began to crumble, and people were able to speak more freely, I learned that the people knew it was a sham all along, as reflected in the iconic phrase "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." But let's be clear, whatever the USSR and the Peoples Republic of China were, it would cause Karl to spin in his grave.
We would agree on that first, but I would further contend that Marxism is a dead letter on arrival. It has been tried MANY times for the last 100+ years... all over the world, in big countries, in little countries, in a variety of flavors, and it always fails.
Of course it would make him spin in his grave! I doubt he actually believed anyone would try that shit! LOL
I appreciate the thought put into this article. It certainly helps us as the people of America to be aware and mindful of the heart of organizations. Often times these organizations pander to our emotions and we are often caught in the middle as we "wake up" seeing to entangle ourselves from the web of marketable lies in which we are laymen.
My husband and I were discussing the fact that the country is moving swiftly into Fascism under the hand of this president and his administration. They are assuredly stoking the fires of fear towards socialism while issuing executive orders to involve federal agents to states who did not request aid or assistance. The 45th President is a friend to Russia and a fan of federal force.
My question is, if it is socialism on the left and fascism on the right, what is a God fearing Christian to do?
(Jesus prophecies perhaps about this in Matthew 24 15-17 and suggests those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. An off grid life self-sustained in God's perfect nature sounds pretty sweet to me!)
EmJay, Please read my first article where I (debunk) explain where Fascism really lies on the political spectrum.
To answer your question:
Conservatism. That's always been the answer to both Communism and Socialism. (Hate to preach, but you asked explicitly! ;))
I suppose this is where my homeschool education failed me. I have always been taught the conservative party aligns with the Republican Congress, which, in my understanding, is responsible at the core for the current state of affairs in the government.
I suppose I was fishing for answers like term limits for all government service and accessible community programs run by non-partisan government officials rather than private special interests funded by Government grants.
Individuals can still opt out of government services if they choose! Providing for the people does not have to look like Venezuela Socialism.
We run so quickly from every man for himself to the government against every man. I am just wondering if we are "woke" enough yet to write our own policy which gives every man freedom of choice + a safe space to build the life of their dreams based on birthright not social status.
One paragraph at a time:
1) the current problems are indeed due in part to Republicans in Congress and in the WH, but Democrats control the house and they share plenty of the blame.
1b) the Republicans who are at fault have done nothing which would be considered even close to “fascism”... that charge is also hard to even pin on Trump, even if he does things he doesn’t like.
2) I have no “answers” to that expectation other than to say that there is no evidence that I’ve seen that “non-partisan” government officials are more fair than private options, or that, these days, non-partisan government officials even exist.
3) no. They can’t opt out when the government crowds out the competition (intentionally or unintentionally), and you’re right you can create a socialist system which doesn’t turn into Venezuela, unfortunately the way that it prevents turning into Venezuela is to stop being socialist (Sweden is a fun example).
4) again: that’s called conservatism; specifically American Conservatism. A culture of love and respect for fellow man; a respect of private property, a commitment to community and a work ethic. And very limited government based on protection of god-given rights (birthright).
These aren’t “SOLUTIONS” though. Term limits and “getting the money out of politics” is not going to solve our problem.
Conservatives don’t look for solutions. We’re constantly looking at trade-offs. :)
(Sorry on 1b: even if he does things WE DON’T like.)
We all have to share this country, a country that I love. And the America that I love has nothing to do with political parties or the transients who hold office. America is a set of principles described in the Declaration of Independence and later codified in our Constitution. Unfortunately, we have never lived up to these principles. But we must continue to try. What can we do? Get money out of politics - number 1. Election management and the lobbying institution have created a system of legalized bribery and cheating under which the ordinary citizen doesn't stand a chance. I'm totally disgusted and have nothing but utter contempt for Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, Schumer, and their blind ilk who have been duped into following them. We can have a healthy debate about policy, but only if both sides have the best interest of the American people at heart. And if there is money tied to policy decisions, then it should have no place in this country. It is un American.
I do NOT believe that "getting the money out of politics" will solve anything, if for no other reasons that the tools that would be required to do so would be so draconian as to do more damage than good (Conservative: tradeoffs), but also because I believe that money and speech are hard to separate.
I also don't like term limits for legislators. (Lots to get into there)... honestly, to an earlier point, I don't believe that any policy prescription will "solve" any problems.
If we want more from our politicians (or ... you know... less), then we need to demand better of them, not try to change the systems to accommodate their corruption. It's a useless endeavor and it will end in misery. When John Adams said that the Constitution was "made only for a moral and religious people, and is inadequate for the government for any other" what he meant was that the people needed to be worthy of the Constitution's protection... not that if they stopped being so, the constitution could be tweaked to accommodate it.
The sides at play are you. And me. We have almost no control over what those people are doing now. The more we talk about them and complain about them the worse we do. We need to have the HARD IDEAS debates and start changing the way people think about what to expect from their politicians. :)
I have to question your response to 3 because does this not offer a trade off to conservatives?
We are so against things like Universal Health Care but what privatized option are we providing?
We are loud about the rights of the unborn but what of the rights of the marginalized and those enslaved by the Capital System?
If we are not looking for solutions but for trade offs, then we must be willing and open minded at the trading table, yes?
I can answer all of those things, but not all of them on this thread. I think it's a misnomer that Conservatives don't have concerns about: healthcare (I could write you a book on that one); or the poor or marginalized (I take issue with "enslaved"); nor does an understanding about tradeoffs make anyone close minded.